135i or BRZ

"iLikeCarsAndSkiing" (iLikeCarsAndSkiing) 09/27/2014 at 18:06 • Filed to: None

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If you had 23k to spend, would you buy a new/slightly used BRZ Limited, or a sub 50k mile BMW 135i? AND WHY? ( I know what else is out there for that price range, but I've narrowed it down to just these)

I test drove the BRZ today, and while the handling is all it's cracked up to be plus some, the car is seriously slow. 135i is the opposite: such good power, but the steering/handling felt very sluggish with lots of body roll. So... power versus handling is the question.

CounterTorqueSteer > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:14

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I'd go for the 135i. There are a million things you can do to improve responsiveness and body roll. Plus, you'll be different. Better sound also.

Conan > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:16

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I'd buy a 135i and put a limited slip differential on it stat.

Crest > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:16

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Why not the Genesis Coupe? I test drove an FRS before i bought mine. Yes the FRS handles better but the genesis is better in every other way and handes pretty good too. What made the deal for me was the extra power and luxury in the Genesis which is all i need on Texas highways

JR1 > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:17

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I would say BRZ. It looks way way better and power is an easy fix

iLikeCarsAndSkiing > Conan 09/27/2014 at 18:17

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Does that just help with "Driftability"? Dumb question but I honestly don't know..

iLikeCarsAndSkiing > Crest 09/27/2014 at 18:18

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My friend has one and I like the car a lot, but it is fairly heavy. I guess I should consider that. It seems to be very popular

Burrito de EJ25 > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:20

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I'd go with the BRZ. It just feels like the cheaper platform to get more out of it later down the road. Less miles so things are less likely to break and they'll be cheaper to fix down the road if they do.

It just boils down to what you want to do with your own car. The lighter weight BRZ with the right mods could be a fantastic auto-x/canyon carving machine. The 1-series might be better for typical everyday driving (jack of all trades master of none), though I don't think the BRZ is going to really let you down while trying to merge onto a highway.

Conan > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:21

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It pretty much helps with everything track related, drifting often included. It doesn't help for drag style racing.

http://www.cnet.com/videos/car-tec…

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:22

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128i M-sport. Silky smooth. NA I6 that makes increasing power as it screams to a 7100 RPM redline. Plus, good reliability along with the fact that 400 HP will be possible for under $7k soon.

YSI-what can brown do for you > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:24

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FRS because you can make them as ridiculous as you want.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:25

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135i, better looking IMO, more comfortable, more powerful. Also I know a lot of people who have had major reliability problems with the brzs when they track them, lots of transmission failures.

Crest > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:27

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Well what I can tell you is it costs less than an FRS but has more power and much much more creature comforts standard. It's only popular because it so damn easy to modify and add more power. Look up the forums and see the insanity that resides there

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > Burrito de EJ25 09/27/2014 at 18:27

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I'd disagree with the BRZ being a great platform to build on. A lot of people I know have had a lot of reliability issues with them once they start tracking them, it seems like the drive train has issues with the larger forces it has to deal with once you put better rubber on the car.

iLikeCarsAndSkiing > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 09/27/2014 at 18:28

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supercharger?

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:33

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Yeah, ESS is coming out with one that's good for over 100 HP and a good deal more along with a few breathing mods and a more aggressive tune. I have a massive N52 obsession for some reason, but if you go for a 1er its real bonus points over the 2 series are for being the last BMW to offer the NA I6 and hydraulic steering. I drove one for a short time and it was so engaging with that engine and a manual transmission and like no other new BMW.

Burrito de EJ25 > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK 09/27/2014 at 18:36

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Tracking =/= canyon driving and auto-x.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > Burrito de EJ25 09/27/2014 at 18:39

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True, but I still worry about drivetrain health once you start adding mods. If you want a BRZ great, but be aware that you could be paying dearly if you start adding mods, even just stickier tires can be a problem.

MK6GTI-now with added Miata > Crest 09/27/2014 at 18:43

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It's kind of weird, but I have almost no interest in the Genesis coupe. On paper, it's a pretty good car, but I can't make myself like it for some reason.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:43

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135i, hands down. BRZ is great at times, but on a daily basis the 135i is much, much better.

Burrito de EJ25 > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK 09/27/2014 at 18:44

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I always take these singular anecdotes with a grain of salt. Especially since we're talking about track driving.

Jonathan Harper > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:48

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135i because BMWs are DA BESS

Jonathan Harper > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 09/27/2014 at 18:48

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No, no, no, 228i M sport!!

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > Burrito de EJ25 09/27/2014 at 18:56

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Not only track drivers have been having issues. There have been a TON of quality issues with the FRS/BRZ. Maybe Toyota/Subaru has figured them out, but I certainly wouldn't buy a used one right now.
http://vtecf.tw/fr-s/first-yea…

This makes me sad because like most around here I was hoping for big things from the Toybarus but now I wouldn't go near one, I've just heard too many bad things.

Also the level of track driving that is causing these issues is frankly ridiculous, and the car should be able to handle it. No other car at our track has had the same issues, hell Stef's CVT Lancer has more track miles on it than 99% of M3s and it hasn't had any issues. The car is advertised as a sports car/handling machine. It shouldn't need 3 new transmission in the first 10,000 miles regardless of track use.

 V8 Rustler > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 18:57

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Why no V6 Mustang? It may have a live axle, but it won't leave a one wheel peel like the 135i. 305 hp is good enough and reliability is going to be very good. Beats the 135i, BR-Z, and others around VIR.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Jonathan Harper 09/27/2014 at 19:01

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The 228i is a great car, but not nearly as special as the 128i because it is the last of an era. The 128i engages the driver to a much greater degree due to advantages in steering feel, simplicity, sound, response, power delivery, reliability, and smoothness to even the M235i. Neither are particularly pretty cars in my opinion, but I feel strongly that the 128i M sport has the advantage as a driver's car. Midrange torque is more than sufficient though not as dramatic as in the 228i, but what really makes for a fun time is wringing out a rev happy engine as you row through the gears.

Burrito de EJ25 > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK 09/27/2014 at 19:03

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Again, a small list of anecdotal evidence.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > Burrito de EJ25 09/27/2014 at 19:04

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Believe what you will, I will continue to recommend other cars.

Burrito de EJ25 > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK 09/27/2014 at 19:05

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I believe these things happened, but I'm not going write something completely off because a couple of loud forum members had issues. This goes for any car.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > Burrito de EJ25 09/27/2014 at 19:07

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JD Power reports. Quality 2/5
http://autos.jdpower.com/research/Subar…

iLikeCarsAndSkiing > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 09/27/2014 at 19:08

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Have any idea when that will be out/how much it will cost?

Burrito de EJ25 > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK 09/27/2014 at 19:08

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What's the difference between quality and predicted reliability? How do you even read this?

Burrito de EJ25 > MK6GTI-now with added Miata 09/27/2014 at 19:10

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Same for me. I don't know what it is about it.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 19:16

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They are shipping preorders now, and they are pricing them at $5k apparently. The power delivery and reliability of the N52 are just so nice, and a SC kit from a reputable company won't hurt either so I'm pretty excited! The 128i encounter happened on the hunt for a new car that eventually put my mom in an N52 Z4, but the 128i was the top consideration until I found out there was only one (the one we tested) and it was too old for her. Also drove a nice used 135i and a 335i xDrive, Z4 sdrive30i so that's my experience in the matter. All were manual.

signintoburnerlol > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 19:16

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Considering with what you want. I'd look into a barley used 370Z's.

The BRZ is too raw for some people and yes i mean that. The 135i needs to some serious suspension upgrades for me to take into consideration.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > Burrito de EJ25 09/27/2014 at 19:20

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Quality is a based upon a record of how many problems owners have already actually had. Predicted reliability is how reliable JD Power thinks the car will be over the next 3 years. Either way, it does poorly. The FR-S dragged down the entire Scion brand in quality ratings. In 2012 Scion wasn't great, but had 117 problems/100 vehicles, somewhere in the middle.

In 2013 Scion was dead last, Subaru dropped as well. This is mostly attributed to FR-S/BRZ quality issues. This isn't just anecdotal evidence, these cars have had a lot of issues. Poor build quality, transmission issues, fuel pump issues.

Again, this makes me sad because they are supposed to be great cars when they're running, but they have had a lot of quality issues. Toyota normally figures this stuff out, but I think they're having issues with Subaru who is the actual manufacturer of the vehicles, and who has always had more quality issues than Toyota. Hopefully they've smoothed out the issues with the 2015 model year, but I would stay away from used ones, especially with the 2013s.

Burrito de EJ25 > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK 09/27/2014 at 19:26

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Wow. That's very unfortunate.

Jayhawk Jake > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 19:28

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Neither. I know you said only these two but you're wrong.

Buy a Corvette. You can get a C5 Z06 for $20k, or if you're after refinement go for a C6.

If you hate America get a Cayman

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > Burrito de EJ25 09/27/2014 at 19:32

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It really is. There was so much hype surrounding these cars that criticizing them was tantamount to heresy for a while. "No it doesn't need more power" "You just don't get it" "It's the best thing ever." I was very struck by a review I watched where it was tested back to back with a S2000 and one of the reviewers said, "Last time I drove the FR-S I didn't think it needed more power, now though when I've driven it back to back with the S2000, I realized it does need more power" or something to that effect, going off memory. Throw in the quality issues, and it's really not for me. Here is the review I was speaking of

I Like Corollas > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 19:49

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I know you said BRZ or 135i, but I'd say E46 M3. A little older than the 135i but it has the right power and great handling, so why not?.

Crest > MK6GTI-now with added Miata 09/27/2014 at 19:58

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It's the same for a lot of people. I have absolutely no interest in the 370z or 350z. I could look at them but nothing about them attracts or interests me. So i totally understand where ur coming from. Luckily a lil seat time and i found myself loving the Genesis coupe.

mattoverdrive > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 20:26

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The Subaru dealer near me is talking $5k of left over 2013 BRZs. You could have a new one for under $23k.

Really annoys me that they wouldn't deal much with me on mine when I bought it.

BKRM3 > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 20:49

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Are you kidding? Not sure.

Vicente Esteve > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/27/2014 at 22:56

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128/135i. I like the Subaru, but I dont think I would enjoy it as much as the BMW. The BMW has the more stylish interior thats better equipped, better sounding engines, more power, and you can try to improve its handling by tires. You have to do a lot more to improve the lack of power in a BRZ.

MK6GTI-now with added Miata > Crest 09/28/2014 at 01:36

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Actually the Z is another great example for me. Can't get interested in it, as good as it may or may not be. To be honest, I'm starting to feel the same way about the FRS and BRZ, so maybe I just hate fun or something.

Conan > Jonathan Harper 09/28/2014 at 02:37

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Not on a 23k budget.

Crest > MK6GTI-now with added Miata 09/28/2014 at 11:24

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No you don't. You probably aren't interested in cars that don't exude or drip character. Someone like you will like a tesla for the weirdness, a rat rod because......swagger, or a CTS-V wagon because understated killer. I'm not interested in these little sports cars because true sports cars like the corvette and the 997 are finally obtainable. Go big or go home. Well for me after years of boring Lexuses and BMW's the Genesis was a refreshing change.

MK6GTI-now with added Miata > Crest 09/28/2014 at 13:23

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That may be true, though to be fair I drive a MK6 GTI, which normally doesn't exude anything but warranty work. I do like it a lot more since I put a throatier catback on it though, so I guess that added some character. I'd imagine I could enjoy a Genesis too, but I'd have to do some mods.

iLikeCarsAndSkiing > I Like Corollas 09/28/2014 at 15:33

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I love that car so much, but can't justify getting one and having to spend 3-5k on maintenance each year

I Like Corollas > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/28/2014 at 16:43

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Yeah, that's exactly the reason why I don't have that car either.

JDIGGS > Conan 09/28/2014 at 20:37

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I'd go with a new brz. The 135's motor has that terrible fuel pump problem and it really is that widespread to mention.

Conan not sure about that man. These cars have a ton of power and can't put it down (when modded ecu and increased boost). Cars with limited slips get off the line faster generally because they don't sit there spinning a tire = not going anywhere. Also generally adding an lsd is going to make drifting harder and snappier unless you are building a car specifically for drifting.

Conan > JDIGGS 09/28/2014 at 20:42

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They did have that issue. It's certainly fixable though, and was less an issue with the later ones. There might be scenarios where the limited slip could negatively effect a drift but you're going to have a very hard time getting a sustained slide in these without it. Maybe you know something I don't... but I had that issue during a test drive.

ArmadaExpress drives a turbo outback > iLikeCarsAndSkiing 09/29/2014 at 10:58

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135 Hands down.

Both will be collected by enthusiasts down the road.

135 is more comfortable, comes in a vert (if you desire-I dont though), and you can through on a tune via Cobb or JB4. I didnt realize they were in the same price range but the 135 is awesome.

JDIGGS > Conan 09/30/2014 at 14:01

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I'd be surprised that an lsd would allow you to hold a sustained drift any easier, it increases your grip level and makes the moment break away a lot faster and requires more gas to get there making things that much harder. Also it wouldn't be like the m3's trick diff that is made for the car and has supporting electronic config. Cars without lsd may not rotate as far, usually it's just one direction that has the issue of not being able to do a big fishtail. Pretty sure there is at least a couple articles talking about how the Cayman with LSD vs. without looses some of it's ability to hang the tail out because it's now grippier, and snappier while achieving higher cornering speeds.

My experience is a car with an lsd is always a lot easier to wreck when you are trying to be a hooligan than same car without.

Instead of spinning the inside wheel when you use to much gas at that point in cornering you will go to tank slapping fishtails.

Putting in an lsd is going to make it easier for you to step the rear end out being silly in the rain but in no way will it be easier to sustain a slide, it will be the exact opposite.

Conan > JDIGGS 09/30/2014 at 15:50

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Fair enough. A lot of my experience is with the M3 and what is apparently electronically supported. I wasn't aware. My future 135 dreams will have to be investigated more heavily! Thanks.

JDIGGS > Conan 09/30/2014 at 16:58

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Yes. That being said I have never driven a 135 with an added lsd. So really we are doing a fair amount of speculating. I say if that is something you are definitely planning on try and get a ride in one first. It very well could give you quite a bit more capability w no real downsides. I do have to say I prefer cars with an lsd, you just have to exercise some sensibility when sliding the car. Between the cars I'd really decide what you want. For me I really love cornering and the brz has plenty of power to do all this around town, and still get into trouble. I also have a much faster sti with a big turbo that is ridiculous. I don't even try to speed in it around town because the limits are simply too high, you ever take the occasional on ramp or late braking on a turn. While the brz can get into trouble if you just disregard the speed limits, it's a great hooligan car because it helps keep you within the boundaries more. I only see the 135 being more fun at basically drag racing and the mass of torque it can produce. You really have to break the speed limit to enjoy that, and it doesn't really translate to being fun in corners, more power harder to modulate. I say get the brz all day long unless you need torque knocking you back on straights more than cornering fast.